Curse

bhavv · Jul 10, 2009, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theocrat

In before "so what were we before we were ape-like?".

owait

Fossils only seem to go as far back as human like jaws with much smaller craniums.

Before this we *COULD* have been a different species, or derived from a common ancestor, but I dont think one has been found yet. Humans and Bonobos (new term for our closest relative) may both have derived from the same ancestor, but we definately share very similar characteristics, except that bonobos are not as clever, and most of them are bisexual, plus they dont kill or hate each other for having same gender sex. And they dont believe in God.

Abedeus · Jul 10, 2009, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theocrat

You ever heard of something called "Russell's teapot", Abedeus? Maybe you should ask your priest about it during the next sermon. Maybe you'll feel the warming rays of enlightenment.

Never heard of it. Just checked it, and it makes sense.

And I can't ask a priest during the next sermon, as I don't go to church.

Yeah, I'm a zealot.

You seem to forget why it's called "belief". Because you have to believe in God/Allah/Buddha (...okay, maybe not him, as he was probably real).

Have you ever heard of some wise words from one of the wisest man in the history, Albert Einstein?

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

You prove how lame you are. I, on the other hand, am a follower of transhumanity, so I kinda have religious and technical stuff even.

Fril Estelin · Jul 10, 2009, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

You seem to forget why it's called "belief". Because you have to believe in God/Allah/Buddha (...okay, maybe not him, as he was probably real).

Have you ever heard of some wise words from one of the wisest man in the history, Albert Einstein?

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

I approve of that wholeheartedly. I'm a scientist and believe deeply in a religion.

Science and religion are both enligthening tool, that are abused and manipulated. Both have killed en masse, both saves lives.

During the Renaissance, where science flourished, most scientists were religious not solely for the fact that religious zealots would kill non-believers (and atheism was socially outcast), but because they embraced the effort of understanding from all directions (physical, emotional, spiritual) in a quest for truth, not a war like we can see nowadays. It's even well-know that at that time (it's actually still the case nowadays) scientists fought each other for the sake of egoitistic reasons, and the fact that science progressed was only a side-effect of these efforts.

I love Rabelais' saying in Pantagruel "knowledge without conscience is but the ruin of the soul".

Ghost Omel · Jul 10, 2009, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSDome

Until we find another intelligent race in the Universe in our minds we are the most intelligent. It doesn't make us arrogant.

Nice spelling.

. Thank you i take it as a complement.. once again you and OTHERS like YOU think so.. i find us dumber then a pack of wolfs..Wolfs are not obese, they dont have wars unless the food is short, they share the food, they dont destroyer their own enviroment, they dont eat more then they need to, Their feudal system is organized better than any government now.

+.. just disregarding and ignoring the evidence... doesnt mmean aliens are not there or werent there in the past.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Never heard of it. Just checked it, and it makes sense.

And I can't ask a priest during the next sermon, as I don't go to church.

Yeah, I'm a zealot.

You seem to forget why it's called "belief". Because you have to believe in God/Allah/Buddha (...okay, maybe not him, as he was probably real).

Have you ever heard of some wise words from one of the wisest man in the history, Albert Einstein?

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

You prove how lame you are. I, on the other hand, am a follower of transhumanity, so I kinda have religious and technical stuff even.

I did not know about that quote. =)

Nice one =)....

zwei2stein · Jul 10, 2009, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Pray tell, how religion benefited science according to good old Alby?

I have another quotation from him that is few paragraphs from yours in original text:

Quote:

The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this

He was not rabid atheist thou as he still maintained respect for religion because he valued humility and faith.

Because faith can make humans strive for something more and to be something more than just flesh.

But he also hated when people whipped out that quote that you posted and used it as pro-god argument out of context and way to discredit scientifically-minded opposition.

Ghost Omel · Jul 10, 2009, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Pray tell, how religion benefited science according to good old Alby?

I have another quotation from him that is few paragraphs from yours in original text:

He was not rabid atheist thou as he still maintained respect for religion because he valued humility and faith.

Because faith can make humans strive for something more and to be something more than just flesh.

But he also hated when people whipped out that quote that you posted and used it as pro-god argument out of context and way to discredit scientifically-minded opposition.

MMsdome will be on your tail now beacause of it, using the argument that i personaly did not find valid....Something regardin human evolution from stone ages because of religion.. i failed to grasp the consept =(

zwei2stein · Jul 10, 2009, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Omel

MMsdome will be on your tail now beacause of it, using the argument that i personaly did not find valid....Something regardin human evolution from stone ages because of religion.. i failed to grasp the consept =(

Depends ... if lightning struck, did belief that it was will of Perun (a Strom Lord; we still have some statues of him around here in central europe btw.) really benefited people?

How did it help? Or did it stop people from asking more questions by being easy and nice answer for long time?

---

Yes, religion gave people morals and laws and rules of social conduct (10 commandments for example). And they always had pretty hefty costs. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live".

But you do not need religion to either create them or enforce order ... Hammurabi figured that out long time ago.

Ghost Omel · Jul 10, 2009, 01:01 PM // 13:01

It might be me and i would completely understand but. Ancient greek and Roman "gods" appeal to me as more.. viable deities to worship.. They are all based on the elements of the planter and the emotions of human beings al learned through out the history.... Like Zeus....Lightning .. lightining came before him...so he is aperantly created the human because they couldnt understand what it is correct?

I say that the human inability to undestand weathe,r meteorites, space, suns,and cosmic events led to this idea of higher being.. Once Science pretty much explained and PROVED why lightning goes off and why that asteroid hit you in the face.. these beliefs SHOULD be replaced by facts in my opinion.

The unexplained Machined rocks which are as hard as diamond, landing strips on top of the mountain that been cut flat,cave drawings,carvings of spaceman, the Egyptian lightbulbs and ancient batteries, all are slightly unexplained.

I mean think about it how could a egyptian nation 5k years ago realize that a Iron rod+a copper rod +a Juiice of a frout+a clay pot will create electricity... i mean HOW can some 1 just think of it it.. "Hey let me take this and this and this and i will get gold plated jewlery adn discore electricity".. I believe they had help.

This unexplained things which are obviously(To me anyway) are proofs of alien species that can to our planet to research how far humans get.. i think we are still in the middle of the experiment....Every 1 disregards the possibility for some reason.

Jenn · Jul 10, 2009, 01:05 PM // 13:05

I was refusing to believe this was real, until I saw that place had over half a million posts....

Abedeus · Jul 10, 2009, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Depends ... if lightning struck, did belief that it was will of Perun (a Strom Lord; we still have some statues of him around here in central europe btw.) really benefited people?

How did it help? Or did it stop people from asking more questions by being easy and nice answer for long time?

---

Yes, religion gave people morals and laws and rules of social conduct (10 commandments for example). And they always had pretty hefty costs. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live".

But you do not need religion to either create them or enforce order ... Hammurabi figured that out long time ago.

Well, for once, people didn't know what was after death.

Emptiness? Sorrow?

No, if you were living a good life, Heaven, if bad, Hell. So people were motivated to live well in order to be happy after death. Don't forget how high mortality was back then.

arcanemacabre · Jul 10, 2009, 01:08 PM // 13:08

I'm actually quite thankful for the existence of religion - it gives those a moral compass who would otherwise be very lost without it. I have seriously heard time and time again people of faith wonder in amazement how any atheist could possibly have any morals without god/bible/religion. In other words, if they ever lost their faith, they they would probably 'sin' with reckless abandon and without regard for others. All those who feel that way, please do us all a favor and continue believing.

Ghost Omel · Jul 10, 2009, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I'm actually quite thankful for the existence of religion - it gives those a moral compass who would otherwise be very lost without it. I have seriously heard time and time again people of faith wonder in amazement how any atheist could possibly have any morals without god/bible/religion. In other words, if they ever lost their faith, they they would probably 'sin' with reckless abandon and without regard for others. All those who feel that way, please do us all a favor and continue believing.

Are you saying i am living a sinfull life because i deny existance of a...."god"
Or are you saying something else? IM CONFUSED..Sounds like you are preaching... Ive been to church 5 times in my lifes.. Once for my brothers blessing thing 9Russian orthodox), mine, when my great great father died, my grandmothers death and once to put a candle fornthe dead......always was dragged there -_-

But then again who said SIn is a bad thing? What is a sin? asking questions like that get you out of religion fast.... Im glad i never believed in it....otherwise my life would be dul;l boring and controlled..

But yeah...then again you know have a catholic friend goes to church every sunday.....yet thats the only differnece between him and me.

And yes i agrre with mr Abedius. It was more to keep order in the population especially then when the church was on the same lvl as kings.

Abedeus · Jul 10, 2009, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I'm actually quite thankful for the existence of religion - it gives those a moral compass who would otherwise be very lost without it. I have seriously heard time and time again people of faith wonder in amazement how any atheist could possibly have any morals without god/bible/religion. In other words, if they ever lost their faith, they they would probably 'sin' with reckless abandon and without regard for others. All those who feel that way, please do us all a favor and continue believing.

I do believe I have little faith.

Oh no, I'm going to kill someone in the future. With a toothpick.

Well, here's another good point of religion:

People had simple rules that allowed them to live peacefully. Ignoring wars, as they were usually because of politics, and not because someone actually believed in God ordering him to kill the infidels.

To who would a 12th century peasant listen? To an old dude that lives no idea how far away, or to a God that is everywhere and sees everything?

Faer · Jul 10, 2009, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

I, on the other hand, am a follower of transhumanity

You're a follower of gettin' trolled, is what you are.

As an aside though, I am quite aware of Einstein's words on the matter, and in fact share his views on theological determinism. However, calling him the "wisest man in history" is hardly accurate, as wisdom is more philosophical than intellectual, which of course was Einstein's main claim to fame. Socrates or Plato are certainly further up on the wisdom ladder than Albert, although I suppose the fabled King Solomon holds the title by default as far as you are concerned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Ignoring wars, as they were usually because of politics, and not because someone actually believed in God ordering him to kill the infidels.

Except for many of the most brutal and well-known clashes of steel and iron in known history.

Ghost Omel · Jul 10, 2009, 01:23 PM // 13:23

The latter...

You might flame me and i might be wrong....

But who would a knight a foot soldier liste to....

To the will of the "God" telling him to go on a head on fight with overwhelming forces...Or reason even if it means being an Infidel...Unfortunately tthe first was much more common.. But kings disregarded religion when it came to their rule...

One small simple note on the Peasant thing...

You are poor, you are hungry, you are weak, some 1 promises you food and eternal happines only thing you have to do is Believe in somehtign...i think its a very unfair way to get folowers.. but than again what is.

Sometimes i wonder.. whats gonna happen to me after i die.. will i go to "heaven" or will i burn in "hell" but the i rememebr after my brain functions stopped and im burried il be eaten by worms and bugs.

Abedeus · Jul 10, 2009, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theocrat

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]You're a follower of gettin' trolled, is what you are.

Shut up.

See, now I'm on your level of pointless name-calling. Well done.

Quote:

As an aside though, I am quite aware of Einstein's words on the matter, and in fact share his views on theological determinism. However, calling him the "wisest man in history" is hardly accurate, as wisdom is more philosophical than intellectual, which of course was Einstein's main claim to fame.

I called him one of the wisest men. There are wiser, but still, I do believe that intelligence is more valued than wisdom, at least for me.

Quote:

Except for many of the most brutal and well-known clashes of steel and iron in known history.

They were all about expansion of the country/defending/preventing the enemy from expanding his territory.

People used religion as an excuse. Religion didn't order people to fight anyone.

It's easier for a stupid soldier/peasant "This is the will of God for you to die for Him!!" than "We have to defeat them and take their land, even if a lot of you die!!". Because then they would ask "Why?". They believed they would die for their God, so they would automatically go to Heaven. Seems like a sweet deal for me, a win-win scenario - you win, you score points for God, you lose, you died for your Lord and you are blessed.

Oh, and I do believe that the WWI and WWII were the biggest wars of all time, none of them were religious - only political.

bhavv · Jul 10, 2009, 01:30 PM // 13:30

The science without religion quote has been misinterperated.

Einstein was saying that science without religion is lame because it would serve no purpose and wouldnt have as many questions to answer. Without religion, science would not have had any purpose to discover much of what it has done today, many of our discoveries would not exist and science itself would be pointless without religious philosophies to help create scientific theories.

But of course, religion without science is still a lot worse and would be blind as it would never discover the truth.

Science and religion require each other to be interesting and neither blind nor lame. It doesnt mean to say that a person who believes in science but not religion is lame, but that the two require one another to be kept interesting.

zwei2stein · Jul 10, 2009, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I'm actually quite thankful for the existence of religion - it gives those a moral compass who would otherwise be very lost without it.

Indeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Well, for once, people didn't know what was after death.

Emptiness? Sorrow?

No, if you were living a good life, Heaven, if bad, Hell. So people were motivated to live well in order to be happy after death. Don't forget how high mortality was back then.

Yes, and that lack of knowledge was used to make us scary stories and 'Scare em straight'. Simple methods for simple ages.

Its on same grounds like parent telling child that there is bogeyman under their bed that will eat their eyes if they don't clean up room.

Except kid can sooner or later realize that there is no bogeyman. Just like anyone can see beyond 'lake of fire in which you will bathe in eternal agony, PS: god loves you.'

Capacity to do evil is not being rooted out by simple fear, because at some point benefits will outweight any potential persecution that is not even going to happen in their lifetime (and of which they have no proof).

It takes moral integrity to not do evil. Something that is not being created by fear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

It's easier for a stupid soldier/peasant "This is the will of God for you to die for Him!!" than "We have to defeat them and take their land, even if a lot of you die!!". Because then they would ask "Why?". They believed they would die for their God, so they would automatically go to Heaven. Seems like a sweet deal for me, a win-win scenario - you win, you score points for God, you lose, you died for your Lord and you are blessed.

Yes, but reason this could happen is that religion was antonym to critical thought: Anything with religion coating was by default considered true by default and unquestionable.

If you have institution that has that much of weight that you can order people to die in its name and they will, you have something capable of a lot of evil in your hands.

Ghost Omel · Jul 10, 2009, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Shut up.

See, now I'm on your level of pointless name-calling. Well done.

I called him one of the wisest men. There are wiser, but still, I do believe that intelligence is more valued than wisdom, at least for me.

They were all about expansion of the country/defending/preventing the enemy from expanding his territory.

People used religion as an excuse. Religion didn't order people to fight anyone.

It's easier for a stupid soldier/peasant "This is the will of God for you to die for Him!!" than "We have to defeat them and take their land, even if a lot of you die!!". Because then they would ask "Why?". They believed they would die for their God, so they would automatically go to Heaven. Seems like a sweet deal for me, a win-win scenario - you win, you score points for God, you lose, you died for your Lord and you are blessed.

Oh, and I do believe that the WWI and WWII were the biggest wars of all time, none of them were religious - only political.

The peasant soldier thing is exactly what i am talkign about...Wasnt that the majority of believers to faith.

I dont think Roman Generals thoguht of god when fighting German Brbarians...Russian Military refernced to god as beign on their side but never fough for HIm. Hight Ranking Medieval knights didnt fight for God either...maybe their soldiers were told that but they surely knew the truth.

In the age of Muskateers 1600-1800 if my memoty is correct.. The royalty was full of incest and corruption.. Religion was secondary... But then religion took up arms and had their own private armies .

Anyway you are onsolutely correct.. then the gullable umimportant demoralized people were the core of religious folowers.

bhavv · Jul 10, 2009, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

People used religion as an excuse. Religion didn't order people to fight anyone.

Actually, if you read both the Bible and the Quran, you will find plenty of sections motivating people who follow those religions to fight disbelievers. Otherwise they wouldnt instruct anyone to stone others to death, or curse them with eternal damnation in hellfire.